For those of you who have been following my blog, you will surely have guessed that I'm a knee-jerk bleeding heart liberal, and I'm extremely tolerant and open-minded. (to my family members and friends, there was absolutely no need for that outright snickering....) But I have always been somewhat perplexed by the philosophy of Jehovah's witnesses regarding medical treatments.
I was on call a couple of weekends ago (no, not this past one when I over-imbibed. Give me some credit!), and we ended up doing two kidney transplants. Now I really like doing transplants these days, but they used to be the urology resident's anathema, mostly because they always happened between the hours of 2AM and 6AM (when we could get the OR time), and my residency program did over 250 transplants a year. You can do the math... that's a lot of operating in the middle of the night, with a full schedule awaiting you that very same day. It made for a very cranky resident... But renal transplants are one of those operations that can dramatically change the quality of life for a patient. The transformation can be quite amazing when you go from a dialysis-dependent patient who needs to come in three days a week for 3 hours, to one with a completely independent lifestyle.
But I digress... One of the patient that was called in as a potential recipient for a kidney happened to be a Jehovah's witness. This is not usually an absolute contraindication for a transplant, but he was also on coumadin (blood thinner), and the chances of needing a blood transfusion for such a patient after a transplant definitely increase. Moreover, chronic renal failure causes platelet dysfunction and anemia which increases the risks of bleeding even further. This particular patient would accept cryo-precipitates, but not FFP (fresh frozen plasma) nor packed red blood cells (PRBC) or albumin. And of course he would accept a donor kidney.
(Cryoprecipates is a blood product obtained from plasma that contains clotting factors. Think of cryoprecipitates as very concentrated FFP from multiple donors.)
Forgive my ignorance, but this makes absolutely NO sense to me whatsoever. When did God decry the use of PRBC, but told his followers that cryo was acceptable? Who made up these rules? And who in their right mind would even consider doing any elective surgeries on Jehovah's witnesses if there was any chance of blood loss severe enough to require a transfusion? (this could potentially be ANY surgical cases). In any case, this particular patient was sent back home because we did not feel we could do the case without the risk of transfusing, and a transplant being a somewhat elective case, we could not justify the risks.
Monday, December 18, 2006
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38 comments:
Glad you are feeling better! I consider myself a bleeding heart conservative and tolerant as well. Discussion another day maybe.
I would be concerned about giving a kidney to someone who might refuse treatment that would keep it viable when someone else could benefit from it and be willing to do everything they could to keep it.
I don't understand the Jehovah's Witness stand on blood transfusions and certainly not the contradictions you have described in your post. I am friends with some Jehovah's Witnesses and believe that they are misguided in several areas but then I am sure they think that I am the misguided one. Great minds sometimes have to agree to disagree. :)
One of my former co-workers gave up a kidney to help her uncle. That was several years ago and both are doing well. What a selfless act on her part!
hello,
i'm a jehovah's witness so i thought i'd explain.
for starters all jehovah's witnesses reject the use of whole blood (including our own blood being stored) and the 4 primary components (red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and plasma) anything else is really the up to the patients conscience. so that's why it may have not have made sense.
by why do we believe this? there are main scriptures that we use to base our decision off of.
Acts 15:19-21 - "19 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had in city after city those who preach him, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.”
Leviticus 17:13-14 - “‘As for any man of the sons of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in YOUR midst who in hunting catches a wild beast or a fowl that may be eaten, he must in that case pour its blood out and cover it with dust. 14 For the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood by the soul in it. Consequently I said to the sons of Israel: “YOU must not eat the blood of any sort of flesh, because the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood. Anyone eating it will be cut off.”
Genesis 9:3-4 - "3 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for YOU. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to YOU. 4 Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat."
for more information you can follow the link: http://www.watchtower.org/e/medical_care_and_blood.htm
especially this video: http://www.watchtower.org/e/vcnb/article_01.htm
also there is links to other videos on the left.
Brandon's post confused me even more--I can't imagine a God that would not want you to do whatever possible to save your life even if it is for the sole purpose of living to help others...Oh, well, I guess I don't have to understand and that is a good thing because I don't get it~
How can you not pollute your own body when receiving someone else's *kidney*? Because, you know, the kidney is a big filter for waste.
To me this seems like a patient who likes to express their religious convictions, but don't actually follow them. At least as much as that beyond what most people already know of JW's.
@ohn
if you were being persecuted by say the nazi in WWII and they said you can be let free if you renounce your faith, would you?
how could you expect god's favor if you do things that are displeasing to him, even if it saved your life? same principal. not obeying what is written in the bible is the same as saying that you know better then god, or that you are above obeying this or that requirement. why is it difficult to imagine a god that requires faithfulness?
@Medstudentgod
none of those things in acts 15:19-21 really cause physical pollution per se, as much as they do spiritual pollution. all those things hurt your relationship with god, not necessarily make you sick.
on a side note it is interesting when examining the hebrew scriptures the requirements that were put upon them. they had to leave the village and bury there excrement. they had to bath and stay away from people for 7 days if they touched a dead person or other unclean things, and they were forbidden from many other things that today are viewed as common sense, such as quarantining sick people.
what if they decided that they didn't need to obey those principals since they made no sense (they had no understanding of microorganisms, bacteria, or viruses). then they would be ravaged by sickness such as the nations around them.
today there are other reason's besides spiritual ones to abstain from blood. such as diseases that can result from a tainted blood supply, shorter hospital stays and faster recoveries. if only a fraction of the money spent on blood transfusions were spent on bloodless alternatives then today blood transfusions would be a rarity, as it is many experts believe that within 5-10 years virtually no one will get blood transfusions.
many of the advances in bloodless alternatives were because of jehovah's witnesses rejecting blood transfusions. those advances are helping many people now, and are helping shape the future of standard medical care.
edit first paragraphy:
and they were REQUIRED TO DO many other things that today are viewed as common sense, such as quarantining sick people.
paragraphy??? ...its not a good day. haha
paragraph! haha
Brandon,
I appreciate you have beliefs, I really do. I guess if you don't stand for something, you can fall for anything... But...
I just think that someone has taken these scriptures out of context and thus formed this belief system. Your justification actually does not make sense.
There are so many things in the bible that can be taken out of context.
In this case, a lot of hypocrisy is evident. The religion appears more misguided than anything else.
I know you are trained to argue this point, I just wanted to give my ten cents worth. No reply required.
Aussie.
Whew Doc--I think we ticked off Brandon.(and he needs his own blog)
no i'm not ticked off at all actually, i just like talking about things that interest me. did i seem intense? i'm pretty intense about a lot of things actually.
i tried my own blog for about a week.
i read so much digg.com, and books, and have so many hobbies. plus i'm in school. i spent so much time on it and i wrote like book every day so i got rid of it.
so i really need a tech/programming blog, a religion/ID blog, a web surfing blog, a physics blog, a news/politics/world interest blog, personal experience blog, environment/green energy blog, music/guitar/poetry/painting blog, a health/veganism/exercise blog, and prolly other couple other blogs. i don't have that much time to blog! hahaha i would prolly need another blog about how i spend too much time blogging. :)
I'm really glad you're here, brandon, to help us with this - I think we all have a genuine interest in trying to understand the other guy's point of view, although as ohn said, sometimes we do have to just acknowledge the limits of our understanding and move on.
I read the verses you quoted here, and I'm still a little confused - they seem to be saying that you should not eat blood... but that's a little different from getting a transfusion, isn't it?
So my question is, how can those ideas be translated into a modern setting, or in other words how can you be sure what God would have said about something that didn't exist when those scriptures were written? I know this is a problem that many faiths, not only Jehovah's Witnesses, have to deal with.
there's no doubt that the apostle paul was talking eating blood in acts, even in meat that wasn't bled properly (hence no eating strangled animals since they weren't bled properly.) and blood transfusions didn't exist at that time. and the bible doesn't give any health reason's why we should not take blood, in any way. (although we know that there are some some as blood borne diseases that are undetectable or not scanned for, quicker recoveries from surgery, etc. i mentioned them in one of my other replies.)
also in acts 15:29 it uses the word abstain. there is nothing that qualifies any distinction between orally taking in blood versus a transfusion. interestingly enough, in many translations, it says, "if you keep from these things you will prosper, good health to you." (or something similar. but for a more definitive reasoning...
but what if they scanned for everything and there was every reason to use blood transfusion and no disadvantages?
Leviticus 17:13, 14 - “‘As for any man of the sons of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in YOUR midst who in hunting catches a wild beast or a fowl that may be eaten, he must in that case pour its blood out and cover it with dust. 14 For the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood by the soul in it. Consequently I said to the sons of Israel: “YOU must not eat the blood of any sort of flesh, because the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood. Anyone eating it will be cut off.”
Deuteronomy 12:23, 24 - "Simply be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the soul and you must not eat the soul with the flesh. 24 You must not eat it. You should pour it out upon the ground as water"
there is probably another dozen or more scriptures that say something nearly identical.
the bible is clear that soul if the person's life and not some spirit that exists within a person (in fact the NIV it translates spirit here as life), it does however represent their life, and is sacred to jehovah. in many instances in the bible blood is used for sacrificial reasons (under the mosaic law for the jews). and it refers to jesus' shed blood (which was a sacrifice to cover ademic sin) redeeming mankind.
it is clear, that to god, blood is more then just red and white blood cells, platelets, plasma and 95% water.
if you believe as 2 timothy 3: 16,17 says, "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." and that god is, as isaiah 46: 10 says, "the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand."
then you would also believe that god would have the foresight to know that blood transfusion would be made possible and in some way make some distinction. since condoms have been invented do we now ignore what the bible says about immorality, saying it is outdated? no because we know that there are other reasons to abstain from immorality, most importantly because our relationship with god depends upon it; same principal with abstaining from blood.
Brandon,
Most of your verses regarding this are from the old testament. It has its place, relevance and importance.
The new covenant (i.e. new testament) changes things. It represents a new start, leaving the old behind and celebrating what is ahead. That relationship with God is the order of the day - not legalism. Jesus came to set us free from the 'legalism'.
Legalism is not what the world needs. It is the last thing actually.
The issue of transfusions is legalistic, made-up and ridiculous.
Sorry to break it to you, but you are making it harder for yourself than God ever intended. He just wants to love you.
So does that mean that JW's are all vegetarians, since you are all 'abstaining' from blood? I don't think so.
Just saying.
while the laws under the mosaic law covenant have been abolished the principals remain, and as malachi 3:6 says, "I am Jehovah; I have not changed." so the principals that are in the mosaic law covenant show how god feels about matters and those remain the same. the fact is that blood is sacred to god. and this was reinforced in acts 17:29 when it says to keep abstaining from blood. this means that we must take every reasonable measure to abstain from blood. in the hebrew scriptures god only required them to properly bleed an animal. purposely taking in blood through a transfusion isn't obviously not taking every reasonable measure to abstain from blood.
i'm a (fish eating) vegan because i think its a healthier way to live. that decision has nothing to do with blood or the bible.
my intention on posting this was just to show her and others in the medical field that read this blog that jw's get their views on blood from the bible. and to point her and others towards more information at watchtower.org if anyone wants to email with further questions or discuss other biblical issues you can email me at: bsalus01 at gmail dot com
The Jehovah's Witnesses prohibition against "whole" blood transfusions is made up by their leaders and NOT from the Christian Bible.
It has resulted (by their own admission) in the deaths of thousands of members.They keep flip-flopping on this deadly dogma to evade wrongful death lawsuits.
--
Danny Haszard 3rd generation Jehovah's Witness
-A heads up on the Jehovah Witness-
There is no Armageddon that will annihilate 6.5 billion people,and install Watchtower leaders as world rulers.
The core dogma of the Watchtower organization is that Jesus had his second coming 'invisibly' in the year 1914.Their entire doctrinal superstructure is built on this falsehood.
Jehovah's Witnesses door to door recruitment is by their own admission an ineffective tactic. They have lost membership in all countries with major Internet access because their false doctrines and harmful practices are exposed on the modern information superhighway.
There is good and valid reasons why there is such an outrage against the Watchtower for misleading millions of followers.Many have invested everything in the 'imminent' apocalyptic promises of the Jehovah's Witnesses and have died broken and beaten.
Every Jehovah's Witness member will grow old and die just like everyone else.
----
Danny Haszard Bangor Maine
thanks to danny who has shed light on this Jehovah's witness issue!
indeed this day there are many false prophets who have arose.
The Gospel, as according to Saint Matthew, (King James Version), has warned us of this:
24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.
24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
-------------------------------------
As you reflect on what Jesus has said during the Biblical times, you find that many of what He has said is true NOW. Earthquakes, perstilences... these are the signs of the last days..
Back to the JW issue, the Wiki article on Jehovah's Witness sheds light on their background :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses
Do give the following article a read to get a complete view.
http://www.biblebelievers.net/Cults/JWs/kjcjwtns.htm
Is it possible for a Jehova's witness to put some of their own blood aside before the procedure, in case they need it? And have a transfusion from their own blood?
Jws cannot receive their own blood once it has left their body. In certain procedures (like knee replacement), you can insert an autotransfuser. This is a closed circuit drain system so the blood fromm the knee joint is put right back into his circulation.
I continue to be amazed at how many people base major life decisions for themselves and their loved ones on a piece of ancient literature. To quote Mark Twain: “It has some noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.” Keep doing your best, Keagirl.
What I think is so totally inconsistant is that cryoprecipitate is made entirely from plasma! So why is one acceptable and the other not? So to me, it's all in the name. Or blind faith in the face of ignorance.
Brandon, your biblical quotations do not allow any "conscience"-based decision on the patient's part.
If a patient declines a part of a medical procedure that we, as doctors, feel is integral to their outcome, then I believe, as doctors, we have the right to refuse them elective treatment. Emergency treatement is quite different, and a kidney transplant is not emergency treatment.
Watchtower blood transfusion ban is anti-life.
The Jehovah's Witnesses prohibition against "whole" blood transfusions is made up by their sect leaders and NOT from the Bible.It has resulted (by their own admission) in the deaths of thousands of members.
They keep flip-flopping on this deadly dogma to evade wrongful death lawsuits.
Did you know that the leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses does allow many of the components of blood so called blood fractions?
Where do they get these "blood fractions"? From the red cross blood donation collections that they revile,as they themselves won't donate a drop.
This is the issue,the blood 'ban' is so esoteric complicated that members will die out of ignorance of what's permitted.
---
Danny Haszard life-long 3rd generation Jehovah's Witness
Hello,
I'm the senior editor of an online citizen journalism magazine and we're currently chasing a story related to the recent births of sextuplets to Jehovah's Witness parents. Two of the babies died and the government stepped in to seize the remaining babies because the parents are refusing blood trasnfusions. We are trying to locate a source who can speak about this subject. If you can help, please contact me at heather@orato.com
The following website summarizes over 200 similar court cases involving Jehovah's Witness Parents who refused life-saving blood transfusions for their children:
DIVORCE, BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS, AND OTHER LEGAL ISSUES AFFECTING CHILDREN OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
http://jwdivorces.bravehost.com/
The Danny Haszard Cult now has a few followers.
Danny has adopted the universal cult-leader stance of presenting himself as both a victim, and a type of savior showing the way to salvation. He is of course successful with only those who reject an honest investigation and give themselves over to the control and teachings of someone who teaches hate.
These traits, of being a victim and a leader intensely interested in saving others, are of course at the very essence of Cults and their delusional leaders.
Though offering a pretense of help, however, his offering lacks conciliatory and genuine assistance to Jehovah's Witnesses, fellow "victims" for whom surely he must hold some kind of good intent.... But, no, he sadly and pathetically just tries to create separation and anger, tries to divide families, tries to destroy happiness, and teaches a withdrawing from and a rejection of the accepted freedoms of speech of our society.
He suppresses the truth in favor of his own vitriolic hate. His efforts are reflective of a perception of personal grandeur and a fixation on his own self-worth.
Also a trait of Cult leaders, Danny lacks the fortitude and purpose in life to accomplish good for himself and others without needing the adulation of others he can dupe. Cult leaders need to build their own self-esteem and to feed their own personal aggrandisement, and to strengthen their own wobbly beliefs by grasping for the approval of followers. Anger is so often a front for fear and weakness. It is the weak person, usually accompanied by weak reasoning, who turns from truth and uses anger and fear as a motivator. Those similarly inclined or susceptible become followers of cult leaders like Danny Haszard.
Instead he has actually made himself more of a slave to the Watchtower than he ever was as a member - he is addicted to his fears and anger, addicted to attacking, delusional as to the success of his efforts to tear down the faith of others, and uses hate as a tool to appeal to those similarly lacking in faith, or honesty, or dignity, or self-worth, or personal esteem.
Remarkably his entire purpose in life in now linked to the Watchtower. Again, apparently,more than it ever was as a member.
This cultish behavior includes efforts to drawing off a following for himself....He has set himself up as an authority figure who works hard to attract followers.
This is the new Danny Haszard Cult.
In case anybody is still interested, here's my blog's entry on Jehovah's Witnesses, medicine, and blood products.
ABOVE COMMENT IS SPAM BY A JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES TROLL STALKER
HUH??
Who's Danny Haszard?
Stalking Jehovah's Witnesses trolls just eaten up with jealousy over Danny Haszard
Troll flamebaiters--Your notions though many are not worth a penny When it gets down to facts, the apologist does not respond back, everything about the Jehovah's Witnesses troll is deception because you are a supremacist cult who feel no need to be truthful with unbelievers who are all,"gonna die at armageddon anyway".
This is the Jehovah's Witnesses troll IP address
james
(c-67-176-38-74.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
James
Aurora, CO
SUMMARIES OF NEARLY 500 JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES LAWSUITS & COURT CASES
The following website summarizes over 165 lawsuits filed by Jehovah's Witnesses against their Employers, and/or incidents involving problem JW Employees:
EMPLOYMENT ISSUES UNIQUE TO JEHOVAH'S WITNESS EMPLOYEES
http://jwemployees.bravehost.com
The following website summarizes 300 U.S. court cases and lawsuits affecting children of Jehovah's Witness Parents, including 100+ cases where the JW Parents refused to consent to life-saving blood transfusions for their children:
DIVORCE, BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS, AND OTHER LEGAL ISSUES AFFECTING CHILDREN OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
http://jwdivorces.bravehost.com
Hello,
The following original Beliefnet videos on Jehovah's Witnesses might be of interest to your web readers:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/218/story_21887_1.html
Best regards,
Beliefnet.com
Hi there,
12 men in Brooklyn NY dictate blood rules to 6 million JW's, and the rank and file JW's are so conditioned so as not to reason about it themselves.
There is absolutely no Biblical reason for JW's to accept blood fractions, none. Yet, all of a sudden, in about 2000, they (the 12) decided it was ok for JW's to exercise their conscience and decide whether they could accept blood fractions or not.
Now, when I was baptised in 1988, "no blood" meant just that NO BLOOD; EVER. PERIOD.
Now, think; between 1988 and 2000 JW's were saying NO to fractions. Question: how many people DIED when accepting a fraction could have saved their lives? How many? One? Ten? A thousand?
Bottom-Line here; the WT is blooguilty for those who did die because thier religious leaders told them that to accept a blood fraction to save their lives would result in their eternal death, and this is what the Watchtower did.
I believe they KNOW the blood doctrine is wrong; they can't change it overnight because they would be sued out of existence.
Prop.
http://propmin.blogspot.com/
What's the situation with child abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses?
Not good. They (Jehovah's Witnesses) take Deuteronomy 19:15 literally, which demands two witnesses to a crime (not easy in cases of abuse). And they cite 1 Corinthians 6:1-11 – "Does anyone of you that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones?" – to justify trying to deal with criminals with courts of elders rather than courts of law.
A Panorama (British) investigation reported they have an internal list of 23,720 reported abusers which they keep private.
Studies in the US suggest they (Jehovah's Witnesses) have proportionally FOUR times more sexual assaults on children than the Catholic Church.
from here
(What is disturbing is that these predators are required to go door to door in the Jehovah's Witnesses faith,this is a safety issue of concern.)
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Jehovah's Witnesses blood transfusion confusion
Simple fact-The Bible does not prohibit Blood transfusions.If you are bleeding to death it is more dangerous to refuse a blood transfusions than to take one.
Bloodless surgeries are great if they can be elective.1/3rd of all trauma deaths are from blood loss.
Jehovah's Witnesses elders will investigate and disfellowship any Jehovah Witness who takes a blood transfusion,to say the issue is a 'personal conscience matter' is subterfuge to keep the Watchtower out of lawsuits..
Jehovah's Witnesses children die every year worldwide due to blood transfusion ban.Rank & file Jehovah's Witness are indoctrinated to be scared to death of blood
FYI
1) JW's DO USE many parts aka 'fractions' aka components of blood,so if it's 'sacred' to God why the hypocritical contradiction flip-flop?
2) They USE blood collections that are donated by Red Cross and others but don't donate back,more hypocrisy.
3) The Watchtower promotes and praises bloodless elective surgeries,this is a great advancement indeed.BUT it's no good to me if I am bleeding to death from a car crash and lose much of my blood volume and need EMERGENCY blood transfusion.
Remember the Jehovah's Witnesses use thousands and thousands of pints of blood donated by others.They use 60% of the blood volume as broken down "fractions" then go on Bible thumping rants about how dangerous and sinful blood transfusions are.
( JW do allow organ transplants which has more risk than whole blood transfusions so their arguments of disease transmission is bogus)
Know this,the reason that JW refuse blood is because of their spin on the 3000 year old Biblical old testament,modern medicine will eventually make blood donations and transfusions a thing of the past.When this technology happens it won't vindicate the Jehovah's Witnesses and all the deaths that have occurred so far.
The Watchtower's rules against blood transfusions will eventually be abolished (very gradually to reduce wrongful death lawsuit liability) even now most of the blood 'components' are allowed.
They are such hypocrites!
Steve Klemetti is an APOSTATE fights and usurps against the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses
Until your faced with having to use blood products you will never know how you really feel about using them weather your a jw or not.
I would say it all depends on your faith and beliefs however no one can deny that blood tranfusions have there pros and cons and Jws have served as voluters for bloodless surgery which has given surgeon valuable experience for other future patients in my case of anemia there is no solution to low platlets which led to low red cell counts in the end blood products saved my life I do not think it is right to except blood fractions and not blood since there is no difference to me one should think for them self and know that its not neccessary to be a marter and die to prove faithfull.I beleve that the reason the organization has not allowed blood is simply because to many people would sue them since memebers have let there family members die due to this reason.
What's so bad about being disfellowed? You can still attend meetings. So what if people stare at you funny? If you really believe the bible is god's word and jw's have the best translation of it, then accept a little humiliation. "He who humbles himself will be exalted, but he who exalts himself will be humiliated". JT
whats so bad about being disfellowshiped? If you really believe the bible is god's word and jw's have the best translation. so what if people stare at you funny, you can still attend meetings and receive spiritual food.
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